Remember Blue Lotus Crystal Scam??

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Re: Remember Blue Lotus Crystal Scam?? -

Postby mitragyna » Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:27 am

The Wizard wrote:Is it true that Dragon's Blood actually does work orally or is this just another rumor spread on E-Dot?

Yeah, I have seen a good amount of confusion regarding the validity of it's active constitutes.

A well known vendor with a very large selection of extracts, who also posts here, carries Dragon's Blood. I ordered some a while back, but didn't get a chance to experiment much. It came in 2 small glass bottles, and was a very thick deep red liquid..actually looked exactly like blood (surprise surprise). I remember dipping my cigarettes in the Dragon's Blood, let em dry, then smoked. I remember feeling something, but it was very subtle (possibly placebo).

Has anyone else tried this mentioned Dragon's Blood from Mark? If it really does have opiate precursors, it may be worthwhile to experiment...
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Re: Remember Blue Lotus Crystal Scam?? -

Postby The Wizard » Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:45 am

I recall Zombie or someone else claiming certain types of Dragon's Blood orally do in fact work as a sedative. I wonder if any form of Blue Lotus would be good orally or sublingually? For anyone who's curious about making Lotus stronger doing ethanol extractions of it are extremely simple and can produce a suprisingly potent smokeable resin extract. What's the name of the opioid like compounds in Dragon's Blood bc I forget. I wonder if that Rubiscolin opioid in spinach does anything psychoactive... If anyone can find good Lotus flowers for less than $8 an ounce PLEASSSE let me know. I so wish I could find a cheap supplier for it. So many sites offer unreasonably high prices on it.
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Re: Remember Blue Lotus Crystal Scam?? -

Postby jacky » Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:23 pm

its been shown that certian croton species have central nervous system depressant effects,
and also, that there seems to be some opioid type of analgesia, reversable with naloxone.

and furthermore, recently some research suggests that humans internal chemical synthesis processes include the production of morphine and other precursor alkaloids.
a few of those morphine precursors are known to be found in certian croton species....

this doesnt mean that thebaine is going to be the best opioid out there, you would still have to weather the effects of thebaine before it is metabolized into morphine, or that eating croton resin will produce any major opioid analgesia that is superior to say codeine...

and I also dont know if what is being sold as dragons blood is even extract of a croton species.

the only research I have personally done with croton sap is croton lechlerii...there are other related species that have the above mentioned data on them, but never have I seen any opioid effects attributed to croton lechlerii.

croton has some obvious medicinal/herbal uses, and there is not a doubt in my mind that it has benefit to some people.

I dont think that smoking any croton species resin will get anyone anywhere...

if you are interested in the peptide like compounds found in food, just look the the effects that milk has on you, or wheat products maybe, or artificial creamer....with milk I notice a definite sense of well being after my nightly cereal, attributable to opioid peptides produced from milk consumption? maybe...
its definitely a reinforced habitual substance for many....
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Re: Remember Blue Lotus Crystal Scam?? -

Postby morphydox » Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:09 pm

jacky wrote:I dont think it was THP, it could have been, THP is tasteless pretty much, but taking a gram or even a half gram of THP would probably put most people down for the night, and they would most likely DEFINITELY notice something.
anyway, 80-90% THP products are usually yellowish crystals...not pure white.

china blue was a fucking scam.

150 +/- mg of thp puts my lab rat down for a good hour or two. I dunno what a whole gram would do! Holy cow!

The duration seems to be pretty short, maybe four or five hours. Maybe a larger quantity would just last longer. Not tempted to push it past 150 mg, though. 75 mg is just about right for my rat, for anxiety. Wouldn't classify it to be euphoric, at all.

Oh, and yes, the crystals are off white, for sure. Doubtful that the "crystals" are thp. Could be thp mixed with a binder/filler of some sort.

From what I've read, THP blocks domamine, causing sedation. But I haven't read much research. For my rat, it feels like it attaches to the bzp receptors, but he doesn't have much experience with it. From the couple of times where he's become so relaxed, and fall asleep, it was very similar in effects and actions to a certain highly perscribed benzodiazapine to him.

But, for those of you intrigued by my comparison, proceed with caution. I'm in no way a medical professional, but I bet you could become dependent on it with regular use. I could be wrong, especially if it blocks dopamine. But that is a whole different topic that I haven't researched whatsoever. Be wary of taking it with cns depressants. Hate to be a chicken little, but better safe than sorry. And, as I mentioned, thp is in no way euphoric.

I would recommend trying sliced corydalis to start, then the 5X, and then isolated thp, if you are inclined to do so. My rat is tempted to make a mixture of all three. Would have to apply the thp to the ground sliced corydalis, because of it's low dosage, to make sure the mixture would be homogenous. It would require REALLY good mixing as well, even with the thp applied to the ground sliced corydalis. Wouldn't want the mixture to not be homogenous, and unintentionally take too much of the 5X. Would probably be the best idea to weigh each indidvidual dosage unit separately, to be sure, and just take a very small single dosage unit of each.

Looks like with mice (not the best comparison, though, especially for rats like mine), it seems the LD50 for thp is incredibly high. Over 1 gram/kg. Scroll down towards the bottom after clicking on the link to get past the drivel. This is huge! And this study suggests 25-75 mg daily of THP would be beneficial, although it doesn't say why. From what I've gathered from this study is that THP does not help hyperthyroidism.

From what I've read, most "sleepytime" pills containing isolated thp are standardized to 25 to 30 mg a pill (of l-thp, just one half of the 80-90% of what I believe to be racemic dl-thp available.) The L-THP is supposedly responsible for the hypnotic effects.

So, from what I've gathered, 25 mg of l-thp is just about as potent for sleep as 50 mg of the 80% thp isolated from corydalis root available. As far as the d-thp, not sure of the effects. Could work with the l-thp to increase the sedation, so 50 mg of pure dl-thp may possibly be more powerful than 25 mg of l-thp.

I could be wrong and the isolated thp could be just l-thp, but I'd bet on it being racemic.

But yeah, as jacky said, 1 gram of thp would definately put one down for the count all night.

My rats wouldn't take more than 50 or so mg of the 80% thp during daytime hours, or anytime they need to be awake and aware. This may vary from person to person. As always, your mileage may vary. Proceed with caution and always start small, and work your way up. That way you don't end up eating your hat or in a compromised position. My rat started with 25, then 50, then 75, 100, etc.

Also, my rat noticed it does not dissolve in water, so he weighs it out onto a peice of paper, and drops it onto his tongue, washing it down with copious amounts of water swished around his mouth for good measure.

My rat thinks that it would dissolve into vodka, for easy dosing with a pipet for concentrated solutions, and with one of those childrens measuring spoons for mixtures more dilute. (The ones that look like a graduated cylinder with a spoon mouth at the end. Think they're graduted to 10 mL - 2 teaspoons - maybe only 5 mL)
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Re: Remember Blue Lotus Crystal Scam?? -

Postby The Wizard » Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:13 am

The mood altering effects of milk don't come from the Tryptophan content?

What specific Croton species are reported to have opioid like activity?

I wonder if the compounds in Croton are very soluble in any liquid.
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Re: Remember Blue Lotus Crystal Scam?? -

Postby jacky » Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:54 pm

oh, I am sure some of the mood altering effect is due to the tryptophan, its just a guess of mine that opioid peptides produced from milk consumption produce any psychoactive/somatic effects in humans.

Croton urucurana Baill. is one species where the authors state that that opioid mechanism is SUGGESTED due to naloxone induced reversal of analgesia...

there are plenty of other croton species, at least 4 that are used as "sangre de draco" though, and many of them have related chemistry..

one is called croton salutaris, presumably because the alkaloid, morphine precursor salutaridine occurs in the plant.

reticuline and salutaridine have been shown to be metabolized into thebaine, and thus into morphine in humans, and in mammals.
and the UN considers thebaine itself to be a drug of concern due to its habit forming mental and physical effects.
even though the narcotic effects due to thebaine consumption are not due to thebaine itself most likely, but due to morphine produced from the metabolism/catabolism of thebaine...( I am not sure which it is concerning thebaine to morphine augmentation )

what I have no clue to is:
the % content of reticuline/salutaridine in different species of plants

what % of those precursors are actually converted into morphine

if the conversion is 30%, then I could see dried plant material containing 1% of either alkaloid being psychoactive in 10-100 gram doses...

I am not sure if a standard opiate test would reveal anything?, considering an opiate "clean" individual (except for endogenous of course) consumed the croton species and then took a pee test the next day.
but maybe blood analysis would reveal higher than normal endogenous morphine content?

the problem with consuming this material is in its astringency....the sap does mixs fairly well with water.

I think the only way to test the reticuline/salutaridine conversion to thebaine/morphine hypothesis is for an opiate clean individual to take isolated amounts of either compound, and get a urine test...
or, maybe for an opiate addicted individual in the throws of withdrawl to take the material.

there could easily be enzyme issues blockading any major effects, or like some people, complete lack of enzyme function for converting certian compounds to active opiates, such as codeine to morphine in some individuals (estimated 10% of the population)
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Re: Remember Blue Lotus Crystal Scam?? -

Postby The Wizard » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:55 pm

I noticed yesterday that one of my local headshops now sells Dragon's Blood by the oz. for $2.50. They don't identify what the genus and species is of their particular product. Is there much chance that it's one of the psychoactive species of Croton? Would I be a fool to buy it and try eating a few grams? I don't remember what people said the dosage range was for ingesting Croton species orally. They also sell Kava root for $3 an oz. What a fucking ripoff. Prob. is shitty quality too.
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Re: Remember Blue Lotus Crystal Scam?? -

Postby totempole » Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:13 pm

morphydox wrote:Sanguinaria Canadensis sap used to be placed on sugar cubes to sooth a cough. And the sap is also listed as a mild sedative in many books and literature that I've read.
Last summer I picked some blood root (Sanguinaria Canadensis) plants at a local farm stand. I put some in my mouth and chewed it, and the farmer lady freaked. "How do you know that's not going to kill you?" she asked, surprised. I told her I'm used to testing plants this way, and besides, I had some familiarity with blood root. I took the specimen home and planted it in my flower garden. I'll have to check on it next summer, see how it's doing.

As you can see, it didn't kill me.
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